Subscribe to our RSS FeedOne nice thing about numbering all of the Random Observations is that we know exactly how long we’ve been here, and wow, 12 weeks goes by really quickly. Some of our new and improved random observations now include photos! Enjoy…
Random Observations: Week 11 & 12
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Spring is definitely in the air here. The weather is getting hot, the sidewalk cafes are full, trees are blooming and there are kids making out everywhere. I guess they don’t really have a house to go to, so they take to the parks, streets, etc. Sorry, I only have a picture of the flowers, not the kids making out.
- This picture pretty much sums up the Argentine attitude towards salads and vegetables with your dinner. Yes, it does say “Salad Bar,” but do you see any salad? I see a bowl of olives, but everything else is pretty much the garnishes for the meats.
- Maybe to make up for the lack of salad here, we’ve found that portion sizes at the stores are much smaller than in the U.S. This picture shows the biggest possible bag of M&Ms that you can buy at the grocery store near us - the “GRANDE” bag. Compare this to what they sell at the grocery stores back home (the XXL bag is 52oz – over 15 times larger) and you can see why we have an obesity epidemic.
And a few other random observations:
- There are not very many people of color here. Argentines themselves are for the most part fair skinned, probably stemming from the many European immigrants here. There seems to be very few African immigrants in Buenos Aires, so they are more noticeable when you see them. (Something that you would never even think about in NYC because it’s such a melting pot of people and cultures.)
The strange thing is that I saw an African immigrant on Santa Fe street selling fake watches out of a briefcase. This scene could have easily been taken directly from mid-town New York. What is with African immigrants selling fake watches? Is this a universal thing?
- I’ve seen limes in grocery stores, so I don’t think there’s a problem getting them here, but don’t expect one in your drink at the bar. They have some lemon slices, but I have yet to see limes. Even when I ordered a Corona, it came sans-lime…just not the same.
- Happy Halloween! While it may not be an officially recognized holiday here, the kioscos all sell Halloween candy and you can find a good number of costume parties (although it is still impossible to get a real pumpkin). I’ve heard that the celebration of Halloween in Argentina has especially picked up in the last 10 years, which is good for candy and costume sales. (Halloween generates $5.77 billion in sales in the U.S.) Plus, it’s my second favorite holiday after Christmas…
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19 responses so far ↓
1 Antsise Frixione-Conner // Oct 31, 2008 at 5:51 pm
The people of color are all in Brasil. The ships of slaves didn’t make it that far down…
2 Alan Patrick // Oct 31, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Antsise,
Not true! The slave ships made it down here, and indeed straight after the end of slavery in Buenos Aires it is said that around one third of the city’s residents was black.
Alan
3 Lululala // Oct 31, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Antsise! How argentine you are! Not only the things you say are not true… I also feel a high level of racism in your words (the only thing left for you to say seemed to be “we are all Europeans here!”). They are “all” in Brazil. NO they are NOT. And BRazilians are mostly white – as they say – or europeans – as you Argies, like to say. So really, before you say anything, READ and LEARN, not only read and FORGET it.
4 Luis // Oct 31, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Alan is right. And this is one of the misteries of argentine history. There are a few theories explaining what happened to coloured people in Argentina:
1) They were sent to the front lines in independence wars and against neighboring countries.
2) They were specially vulnerable to tuberculosis and were decimated while an outbreak.
3)And the third and, in my opinion, the most probable, is that they simple were outnumbered by far by last century’s european immigration and their color simply washed away by mixing.
Today, it is very difficult to tell if the slighty dark color of some argentines is due to their indian or african ancestors, they are simply mixed with a very high proportion of white blood.
5 Madeleine // Oct 31, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Actually, I think the african slaves did make it down here too, but not so much as in Brasil.
During the Independance war, lots of them were sent by their “masters” to fight with San Martin, for example. Forefront canon meat! Diseases took its toll on the rest of them.
In Mendoza, there is that giant monument in Parque San Martin where you see that some soldiers have African features. I cannot download a picture here (I think) but you can see one in my blog http://madodecker.spaces.live.com (the fist soldier of picture 21 in the album “Mendoza avec Yvon”).
As for the Africans on Santa Fe and Corrientes, lots of them are from Nigeria, THE master country for counterfit goods in Africa… Perhaps they bring all these watches and gold-plated jewels with them all over the world (?).
And in a few weeks, the jacarandas will be dressed in purple. Pure bliss! don’t miss the show in Bosque de Palermo.
6 Evie ABat // Nov 1, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Well, I am of color, so I’m adding to the mix! I was surprised to see those jewelry vendors on Santa Fe, too, and I assumed they were from Nigeria. I could be wrong.
Yeah, I don’t see as much color blending as, say, NY, LA, or DC. I have yet to see an interracial couples, but I’m 1/2 of one. There is cultural blending, though, with all the Peruvians, Bolivians, and Paraguayans.
7 Hernan // Nov 1, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Ignorance is not discrimination! it’s just being miss informed, either History or cultural differences.
Yes, grew up in B.A. and yes I had a black classmate (one) in my primary school (middle school) and one in High School. I rarely saw one in the street in Buenos Aires.
I was scared and impressed to see so many black people in Atlanta when I arrived… I don’t think I ever saw discrimination when growing up… but in the US it is a very sensitive topic.
So I think it is important to understand that, MOSTLY, Argentine don’t have issues with discrimination by race, religion, gender, political view, etc. Mostly.
In fact some words used to describe someone’s feature that in the US are considered BAD BAD words like Negro, Fat, skinny, big nose, big boobs, big head, big ears, tall, short…etc, in Argentina those are used as nick names, or instead of friend, wife, honey, dear, babe, baby, hubby, etc.
Maybe Antside comments comes from the fact that MOST black people from Buenos aires are from Brazil where according to the CIE book of facts, almost 40 % are back when in Argentina almost 90 % is considered white.
What I learned in High School about why there are not black people any more is series of unfortunate events (yellow fever in Buenos Aires, Front line war, and perhaps the mix) but according to hat I remember is that even tho Argentina freed the slaves at the beginning of 1800s they didn’t have jobs and they still were considered the lowest social class so a big number of them migrated to the northern countries like north of Uruguay and Brazil.
Their luck in Argentina wasn’t better than the natives which are in danger of extinction.
8 Madeleine // Nov 1, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Interesting issues.
From my understanding, some Argentines do have quite a big issue with xenofobia (fear and rejection of the ‘other’). I’ve heard most people I know or in random conversations in public places talk real bad against the ‘negros’ from the indian communities in Argentina, Bolivians and Peruvians especially, that they are lower-class people, are taking the jobs, are taking advantage of the eduction and health care systems, that they contribute to the insecurity, the filth, the drug and ‘villas’ problems, etc.
We all have our ‘niggers’ issue, individually or collectively. Even though this is totally unfair, and should never exist under any skies. Unfortunatel, that reality stil exists with the white towards blacks, white Argentines towards more ‘coloured’ people, white north-africans towards black africans, africans from one tribe towards another tribe (Tutsi and Hutus ring a bell?)
Basically, we are afraid of the unknown and it is much easier to put them aside and live confortably than trying to learn from the other.
Too bad though.
9 IGoBuenosAires // Nov 6, 2008 at 8:58 am
This debate seems to be heating up lately. There was just an article written (can´t remember, Argentimes maybe??) regarding a survey done on Portenos, took blood samples and did questionaires. At the mention of ¨being black¨ Portenos slammed doors. Sin embargo, in the end, samples show that a high portion of Portenos actually have African DNA. A large portion of Africans actually integrated into the Argentine society and slowely were less evident.
The myth that Africans were less able to survey disease is akin to saying they weren´t as highly developed, sounds latently racist, no?
There is probably some truth in the war theory, similar to what many countries do with minorities.
Last but not least, Julio Argentino Roca came in the 1800´s and committed widespread genocide of native Argentines and anyone else of color. Hence why we today see Argentines mainly of European decent.
I don´t think most Argentines know they are prejudiced, nor would the majority ever overtly express it. It is more built into the culture, similar to most countries (hello, Prop 8 in California). Very friendly people, just not exactly taught what prejudice is.
Cheers,
Kate
10 Rechill // Jan 23, 2009 at 5:18 pm
The myth that Africans were less able to survey disease is akin to saying they weren´t as highly developed, sounds latently racist, no?
NO it doesn’t. It’s just biology. When the Spanish first came to South America, they brought with them diseases that were alien to the population therefore they were more suceptible to it. It is also biology that Africans have a lower average IQ than Europeans and Asians have a higher IQ on average than Europeans. There’s no hate involved. Just biology.
11 Luis // Jan 23, 2009 at 5:45 pm
@Rechill:
It is true that spaniards brought many mortal diseases that contributed to the decimation of native people. Even a simple flu could kill thousand of natives, because of the lack of antibodies ( It is also true that north American troops used to give infected blankets to the native sioux and apaches in their reservations, killing them without bullets ).
However, I believe you are wrong regarding IQ levels according to races. This is totally wrong and it has no scientific base.
All human beings, of any race, are closely related one another, and the genetic differences are only superficial ( Just look at the National Geographic’s Genographic Project to see what I’m talking about).
There are, indeed, social and cultural differences. But cultures are better or worse according to the point of view of the observer.
Is north american culture better than latin culture? All depends on what you consider “better”. Are africans worst than europeans? From an european point of view, probably. But did we ask them if they wanted to be part of the white culture in the first place? No, we just enslaved them and brought to America. I’m sure they were happier than we are today, with all our technollogy and fancy cities…
12 Rechill // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:22 am
Genetic differences are not superficial at all, or they wouldn’t be differences. And it is true and based in scientific fact the there is a difference in the average IQ within races. I wasn’t saying any one was better or worse. Wouldn’t you consider IQ to be superficial then? Is a white person with an IQ of 130 “better” than a white person with an IQ of 85?
13 Luis // Jan 26, 2009 at 10:42 am
I am sure that what makes the difference is the environment in which a human being is raised, how it encourages his potential and how it affects his self esteem.
If you send a black child to a school where everybody else is white, in a place and time where being black was a punishment (for example Alabama in the fourties), this kid will surelly grow up feeling he is worst than an animal.
On the other hand, I remember Sidney Poittier’s story, when he remembered his early days in the Virgin Islands, where he was born. He lived his childhood in an environment where being black was common, and where there was respect, education and love. Hence, he grow up with no sense of inferiority at all. He simply never thought that being black was worst than being white.
So when he went to mainland to start his career, he was shocked to see how black people was treated and how they saw themselves.
Just try raising your kids telling them every single day that they’re worth nothing, that they are dumb, stupid and that they will never be doctors but workers, because this is the only thing they can aim to.
What do you think will be their future?
This story is quite similar to Obama’s.
He was not the typical negro, he was raised in a multicultural environment, in other cultures, and he learned (not without struggle) that he was just like any other human being.
As for IQ ratings, let me tell you my experience:
Some years ago, I was tested for a job and I got it.
Soon I realized that my work mates and my superiors saw me with a high respect and admiration, with no aooarent reason for that.
It seems that my test throwed a very high IQ with superb remarks from the prefessional who tested it.
The curious thing is that years before that, I was simply rejected from another job for the opposite reason. My test was very bad.
My conclusion: intelligence cannot be tested. You have to define what intelligence is in the first place. There are many kinds of intelligences (or abilities, to be more precise). I know people with excellent mathematical skills, who just can’t find a girlfriend. And the other way around.
Others are very stupid but with an excellent ability for sports. Others have very good people’s skills, but lack of any professionalism in their fields.
Given exactly the same consitions for everyone, there are no differences. We are all the same.
14 Rechill // Jan 26, 2009 at 11:01 am
So you are saying that all IQ testing is just plain wrong all the time and there is no scientific basis? Here in the USA for the past 40 years, all things black have been honored, imitated and celebrated in the mainstream culture. It hasn’t been “the 60′s” for quite some time. I’m talking about intelligence, cognitive ability. I am not talking about if someone can dance or get a girlfriend. Theses things don’t build civilizations … well getting a girlfriend helps build civilizations.
There are similarities AND differences in just about every aspect of human behavior. To think otherwise is …well…delusional. You act as if I mean some disrespect. Lo siento, amigo.
15 Luis // Jan 26, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Rechill,
I don’t think you are disrespecting anyone, I just believe that you are wrong, but I’m saying it respectfully
I remeber having read that IQ testing is a pseudo-science because intelligence is a fuzzy term. I do believe you can meassure to some extent different abilities (and from your post above, I guess you agree with me on this). But meassuring intelligence as a whole is non-sense.
Now if we agree in that there are different abilities in all human beings, we should also agree that they don’t depend on anyone’s race.
You need to be intelligent to be good at sports (I believe it is knows as intelligence temporal-spacial or something like this), but this is *one* particular type of intelligence. For example, a famous argentine, Maradonna, has excellent temporal-spacial skills, but he is a complete moron in almost anything else. The same can be said for many black, white, yellow or whatever people around the world.
You being American, should know that your universities are full of foreign people of all races having success. Why? Because they offer the right environment for that.
).
Despite the prejudices in other places in american society, we must recognise that amongst intelligent people (scientist, engineers, etc), there is a good meritocratic culture (that means that the best one gets the job, no matter who he or she is – I don’t know if this is correct english though
As an example, and since we are talking of Argentina here, I just read in the news that Argentina ranks very high in entrepreunural culture. That means that the percentage of argentines who use their *intelligence* and imagination for succeeding on their own is higher than in other cultures.
This has two sides, a positive and negative: this is so because our *environment* is completely adverse, our political class steal opportunities from us, and our economic conditions push us to do something right now.
On the other hand, those argentines who emigrate are usually very successful, because the environment protects their abilities.
The same can be said for many peoples, races or cultures around the world.
That’s why america is the land of opportunities: the bases and conditions are the best for those who are willing to work.
But there is an exception for those who used to be slaves, because they were deprived from their own culture long ago. And by doing so, they were denigrated and reduced to a shameful state. When you don’t know who you are, you don’t have roots and you don’t know where to go.
If were forced to believe all your life that you are useless, you end up believing it.
Just look at how american blacks talk and behave, even when they talk about themselves, they use denigrating words such as nigger. They have no self esteem, they sell drugs because they think this is the only thing they are capable of doing.
However, blacks in other societies are completely different (muslim countries, for example).
Have you ever gone to the UK? Believe me, it is a shocking experience to hear a black man talking with a pedantic british accent while waiting for the “tube” in London. This man has confidence and he is probably well considered by his mates at work. Hence, he behaves differently.
16 Rechill // Jan 26, 2009 at 1:45 pm
I think it is true to say that trash comes in all colors. I fully expect Argentinians to be very ambitious and entrepreunural (90% are of European ancestry). It is the very reason why I want to visit and maybe live there. As for the articulate black man in the UK, that is assimilation, no? Successful assimilation in the USA is hampered by the “culture” available in the media where trash rules. Viva basura! I have seen and experienced anti-white racism as well, even in so-called meritocratic environments. Here in the US, you can be proud to be anything…but European. That is racist. It is a madness we have here.
17 Luis // Jan 26, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I should be happy by your empathy towards us, but I wouldn’t want you to be dissapointed…
90% of european ancestry? well, if you count everyone who has at least a drop of european blood, yes. Maybe.
If you count those who are 100% genetically european, then the number drops considerably.
I’d say around 80% or maybe less.
Even though most argentines are of italian or spaniard ancestry (plus many germans, poles and other europeans) there are also many jews and sirian-lebanese. And many has indian blood as well, not as much as in other countries, but there are many. Specially in northern provinces, were they are majority. You should also count recent immigrants such as peruvians, bolivians and paraguayans, mainly of indian ancestry.
And you should also be prepared to find a country and society that has been brought to its knees after decades of corruption and missmanagement. I regret to say it, but it’s true.
Argentina was one of the six welthiest countries in the world by ’20s and ’30s, but in has continually droped to hell due to many dictatorships, corrupt democracies, clientelism, populism, widespread corruption, etc.
You may find many things to like though, and I still think that in spite of this, it is a great place to visit and enjoy. Just don’t be fooled into thinking this is heaven…
18 Rechill // Jan 26, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Cielo es cielo y tierra es tierra. I thank you for all of the great discussion. What do you do in Argentina? Are you in computers? My wife was just in BA last year for work and she loved it. We are probably visiting next year. Despite the bad luck with governments, I truly admire the people of Argentina who have the courage to get out in the streets and stand up to their bad leaders (sometimes even the good leaders as well). We could use some more of that here.
19 Luis // Jan 26, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Ok, so you already know what this is all about!
I just wanted to make sure you were warned
As for what I do for a living, I manage imports operations from China on behalf of some customers, and of course I use my computer extensively for keeping communications, but I don’t work in IT. Although I can do some programming, specially for web applications.
When you come, drop me an email at luismgz at the google free-mail service (this is to avoid spam…).
Good luck!
Luis
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